the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

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the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Herakles Polemarchakis, Warwick professor and economic adviser to the Greek government, examines what he has
learned in confronting the financial crisis in Greece.




Larissa, with about 250,000 inhabitants, is the capital
of the agricultural region of Thessaly in central
Greece. A rather faceless locale, but it is the talk
of the town in Stuttgart, the cradle of the German
automobile industry, and, particularly, in the Porsche
headquarters there. The reason? Larissa tops the list,
world-wide, for the per-capita ownership of
Porsche Cayennes, the pricey SUV. The
proliferation of Cayennes is a curiosity, given
that farming is not a flourishing sector in
Greece, where agricultural output generates a
mere 3.2 percent of GNP in 2009 (down from 6.65
percent in 2000) and transfers and subsidies from
the European Commission provide roughly half of the
nation’s agricultural income. A couple of years ago,
there were more Cayennes circulating in Greece
than individuals who declared and paid taxes on
an annual income of more than €50,000, a figure
only slightly above the vehicle’s list price.
The surreal situation in Larissa offers an apt
metaphor for the predicament of Greece itself.
By the end of 2009, Greek public debt stood at
127 percent, the deficit at 15.5 percent and the
current account deficit at 11 percent of GDP. In
addition, the outgoing conservative government
had failed to address these long standing problems
and had succeeded in driving the country to the
brink of bankruptcy. At the same time, it had
consistently misreported statistics to European
authorities, compromising the credibility of the
count ry at a t ime when i t needed it most.
The whole artikel :

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo ... evised.pdf
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by contiluigi » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 pm

If Greece would not repay their debts and default, will be thrown out from euro and from europe.
Citizens will not make sacrifices in the short term, but will no longer have a future.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by vasia » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Hello, I have read this article too. As a Greek, I am not quite surprised, it is a known fact that in our country most businessmen/ self employed do not declare their finances to avoid paying taxes. This is why we see doctors of 10,000 euros yearly income with two summer houses, expensive cars and yachts. Tax evasion works well in Greece and there is no system to prevent them. I don't blame Contiluigi, I would think the same way in his position, but the problem in Greece is more complicated than foreigners can see. The only think I can say is that the Greek people don't trust the politicians we have elected (why they were elected, is another topic) and feels more and more insecure about the future.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:03 pm

@Vasia
"The only think I can say is that the Greek people don't trust the politicians we have elected (why they were elected, is another topic) and feels more and more insecure about the future."

I think we al have the same problem there {at least i do }
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by glljansen » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:04 pm

It makes the world think.. me I feel sad, disturbed and angry. Since 20 years, every year, 2 or 3 times a year we have been traveling sometimes for longer periods throughout Greece.
Happy and fullfilled of both having seen and felt Greece and Greeks in so many aspects of daily life.
Sad that if not all Greeks, almost all have contributed in their way to the todays situation since decades, and that no power was in place to run Greece like a country instead of making it a taxfree individual profit center for a big majority of "entrepreneurs", resulting in a gradual bleeding into bankruptcy.
Disturbed about the lack off sence of realism and about the division between the different layers in the Greek community, in order to tackle an immense heritage of debt.
Angry on those that never showed up to elect their gouvernment and on them that made this happen without interfering as elected politicians.
A feel of loss to; will we follow our heart and start to plan our next holidays in May & September 2012, or will uncertainty and unrest rule and make us stay away like so many others already?
I think of Greece daily, and I pray that common sence will prevail.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by dreamofgreece » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:45 pm

I feel very sorry for the many very poor Greek people who are living in a country where the rich people avoid paying taxes, the polititians like polititians the world over are there to feather their own nests and the bankers who caused the current crisis continue to pay themselves huge bonuses.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:01 pm

The numerous Porsche Cayenne specifically in Larissa are probably registered as "Agrotika", (farm business cars) meaning they do not pay taxes. Larissa is the stronghold of the agricultural unions, these guys blocked many times the main highway of the country, the heads of these unions coming with Cayennes and Mercedes payed thanks to the European aids to the greek agriculture!
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:38 pm

I have travelled Greece for fifty years and it was seen to be utopia
and a land of milk and honey .A placce where one could retire in their 50s and recieve the equivelant in monies that I was working for. What a great place to live, I thought, but where was all this money coming from? It was coming from cloud cuckoo land where the geese lay golden eggs. But the geese have just died. The Greek people knew full well that all good things come to an end and, if you live in a democracy, you have to be honest and pay into the system so that you can benefit in later life.
But why should they when they see corruption at the top with people skimming the tax man. The humble want their share as well so they proceed down the same road of deciept unwilling to wake up and smell the coffee.
The Greek Cypriot men are like minded and you will see them in Tavernas with a wad of money in their shirt pockets that belongs to the tax man, and i am told that they tell the tax man what they are willing to pay.
So where do we go from here? by now the wealthy will have converted there ill gotten gains into a safer currency but where does that leave the little man? in England we say on his backsde.
Things have got to change and they need a new system that includes all Greeks who pay a proportionate amount of their earnings. The brown envelope system has to cease and people have to be honest to themselves.
I love Greece and its people dearly and i hope that this letter does not disbar me from visiting a beautiful country.
So in conclusion i ask all Greek people to have a good look at themselves and accept a democracy without fraud as we are all trying to support you and for goodness sake stop striking as we tourists are afraid to book for 2012.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by jsaston » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:25 pm

Well things really dont look good and I think they are not going to look any better in the near future even if the new deal does work.
I work for local goverment in the UK and my wife works for a large media company and we are privy to a lot of undisclosed figures and stats that most people dont get to hear about.

Britan is a nation of taxation, thats what we do best. If there is a way to tax the people of Britan our goverment will do it. Aviod paying tax here and they will find you eventually and make you pay every single pound back unless your a MP or something. Heres the problem not widely known here is just how close our situation is here as it is in Greece. On paper there are some very simular patterns that we share with Greece. The most alarming thought though is how is it a country that is so very good at taxing its people is heading in a simular direction as a country that is not that good on taxation???

I will always support Greece and its people, I hope that a solution is found and that those hard working Greeks who have always done their best to look after us whilst on holiday every year do not suffer because of the reckless and greedy few who have not paid into their countrys up keep...
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by patras » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:11 pm

I agree, more or less, with all the above and especially with you, Allan. Things must change and Greeks must learn to pay their taxes, they didn't so far because it was allowed not to do it. But let's not be those who throw stones, all the European countries have similar problems as Greeks. We are not far from 2008 when millions of euros belonging to German citizens were sent in banks in Liechtenstein in order to evade paying taxes in Germany, now the richest country in Europe. I should remind to Contiluigi that according to Reuters, Italy's shadow economy is estimated to account for at least 22 percent of output, second only to Greece in the euro zone, and unpaid taxes amount to some 120 billions euros every year. And like them, all the other European countries are struggling with tax evasion and are probably happy they are not in the same situation as Greece, at least so far.
But if we live in Democracy and demand for order in Greece, we should also understand their rights to be on strike and show their disagreement. I may not go to Greece in the next year because of that but I book just for one month while they live there for a whole life. Now they don't have jobs, they don't have money for food or taxes, we don't have the right to complain if they are on strike and not happy or give a party when we go there. It's their right and we should respect it.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by jsaston » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:54 am

Well said Felicia...
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by vasia » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:24 pm

Agree with most of you... As for holidays, I understand your hesitation. If possible, better wait a couple of months more and then make a decision. The fact is that if Greece loses its tourism, it is just a step before chaos :-(
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:52 pm

I would like to ad 3 things

1:
UN report about Greece

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/GRC.html
{what shows Greece in a very good light compare it to your own country http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/profiles/}
2:{My husband pionted this out to me}

Argentina was in the late 1990 in the same position as the greeks are now and too everybody's surprise they told the IMF to go to H... and did what they had to do in their way and time and look now at the country ITS doing so wel !
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0127-03.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_ ... tructuring
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/7262e9f2-f ... z1cRvPrqL5

So maybe Greece will be beter off with out the Euro and all the people who try to tell them what, how, where and when! It will still hurt but at least they have a say in their own live and country's way's .
{if you don't believe me google: how the imf sank argentina }

3:
I see many of are going to book again for 2012 .
I also want to we love the Greek islands they remember me of my birth country{ the mentality,the climate even the tax problems ;) MAURITIUS} .
BUT a big BUT we are told if Greece is going to go bankrupt we will lose our booked holiday and none of the insurancies ,that you normaly take out before you go on holiday, will cover this.
So a big SO ....... We don't know what to do at this stage .
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:12 pm

To mdgib7:
The BIG difference between Argentina and Greece is that Argentina always had a strong and productive activity, mainly export oriented. We all know the argentinian beef, exported all over the world. That was the basis of their recovery.
The main economical activity for Greece is tourism, in difficult competition with low cost destinations such as Turkey, Marocco, Tunisia. A lot of the greek industry left to the Balkans. And agriculture has a vely low productivity.
During the Drachme period, Greece used to devaluate their currency on a yearly basis just to keep economy active and tourism competitive. The problem with the euro is that's not possible anymore.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:19 pm

PS: all this will not prevent me to be back in Greece next spring, I almost already finished my stock of Loukoumia and Halva. ;-))
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by dreamofgreece » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:26 pm

Regardless of what happens I have already booked to return to Greece in 2012. There may be riots in Athens but the islands are unchanged.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:42 am

After watching events over the last week it seems to me that no one is going nowhere, but I have a solution for the Greek problem.
If Germany repaid Greece for all the wealth they stole from Greece during World War Two and the Greek Church came forward with their vast wealth the problem could be solved.
Having said that there would have to be an honest fiscal policy put into place or Greece will be back to square one very quickly
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:35 am

To benji

I fully agree about the greek church. Maybe the greek popes could be paid by the church and not by the state!
About the germans, sorry I don't agree: you cannot blaim people who were not even born when the 2nd ww happened. This was 70 years ago! Because if we go that way, why not also blaim the english who burned Jeanne d'Arc in the middle Age! It will be endless.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:25 am

Ifyou stole somthig from me and i found out i would expect you to return what you stole as you would have made me poor while you got richer on my efforts
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:27 am

What did they stole, specifically?
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:00 pm

Oh dear i really did not want to go down this road but now that you ask,during the occupation of Greece the Germans stripped all gold a money from Greek Banks train loads of fine arts and artifacs, stole all food production so that the German people could carry on with a good life. This resulted with the Greek people starving and thousands died. Worst of all they took thousands of Greek people and sent them to extermination camps there is no price that you can put on that.
There is a debt to paid by the German nation,until the dept has been paid there will be undercurrents of mistrust and the wounds will never be healed.
If you dont believe me you will have to research this problem and you will be upset in what you find.
Regards Allan
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:58 pm

@benji
@yrduba
1: Benji i agree with you .
2: yrduba go to the libary or google that one please .
3: This is not the place to fight this one out .
4: I hope you both respect that .

This morning on the news { in holland} i had to find out that more then 35% less holidays are booked to Greece because, prizes rising with more then 25 % and because many are afraid of the strikes and riots.
On the other side the travel agents here guarantee the booked holiday's to Greece ,they first said if it goes wrong its your problem but because of the drop in bookings and cancelations they changed their mind { in holland that is }
So now i hope that the prices als become more realistic again .
Because in that case I'M booking my holiday to Greece soon !
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:05 pm

Yes you are right but I will stand my corner for Greece and the Greek people
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:19 pm

And i agree with you on that one benji
But some newspaper artikel say also a lot

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/new ... tal-flight

And with articels like that i think a lot of europeans think WHY should we help !
And you can't blame them for that .
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:24 pm

I know what happened in Greece during the ww2, my mother told me, she was 14 in Athens when all this happened.
But I don't think its fair to blaim the new generation in Germany for these facts, 70 years later. The modern german nation apologised, this is very important, they cannot be blaimed for ever. This must be the European spirit. In France, and in spite of so many wars between France and Germany, nobody speaks about "german debt due to the war". These guys were first of all nazis before being germans.
Its exacty the opposite situation with the turkish goverment who still denies the Armenian holocaust in spite of all evidence. And as long they will keep this attitude, I will not forgive.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by benji » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:29 pm

I refuse to have a long protracted argument over this issue, but we all have to pay for the sins of our fathers END OF STORY
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:44 pm

On a lighter note i saw this sarcastic funny story in a South-african magazine : http://www.hayibo.com/greece-demands-ro ... ilisation/

I thought it was funny.
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by vasia » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:25 pm

funny article indeed, could only take it as a sarcastic joke
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by yrduba » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:42 pm

Very funny. The problem is that intellectual property and associaled patents are only valid for 70 years. So his request is no more valid since approx. 2300 years. ;-))
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Re: the financial crisis in Greece "makes you think "

by mdgib7 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:32 pm

It looks that the very rich get away with it :
"
Statistics from the Greek central bank show that 33 billion euros was wired from bank accounts in Greece to Switzerland since the beginning of last year. Some have put the figure even higher - as high as 87 billion euros."

http://www.athensnews.gr/issue/13468/50084

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 011_412790

http://www.bankofgreece.gr/Pages/en/Ban ... lter_by=DT

And on TV in holland they say that germany and france want to start a new EURO for just a few of the europese country's
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